Curse

bobrath · May 28, 2009, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Kurzicks do have the upper hand, yes. But the map was designed that way. Stop trying to make it look like player skill has nothing to do with why the Luxons don't win a lot, because it's a huge factor.

Hmmm... then lets redesign JQ so that on it Lux have the upper hand. That way between the two its "balanced".

I pwnd U · May 28, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

^Oh but turtles like to go after anybody who deals damage to it regardless of its magnitude. So you can have a ranger Mel Shot it and the turtle will go for the ranger. In fact I have been using the same strategy to divert the attention of the turtles. So you can have 2 turtles in front of Gunther but Gunther ain't dying because the turtles are busy shooting some other people.

Was talking about his hypothetical situation of 8 monks rolling all Luxon teams. Wasn't talking about in a normal game.

Arkantos · May 28, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Hmmm... then lets redesign JQ so that on it Lux have the upper hand. That way between the two its "balanced".

The problem with that is all the Luxons would be playing JQ, and the Kurzicks would be playing FA, making both areas a dead zone again. If they want to make it more balanced, they have to redesign FA, which I doubt they will.

upier · May 28, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by I pwnd U

The new turtle buffs make it alot harder to heal the NPC's. They do a ton of damage and strip enchants. If you have people already attacking the NPC that you are healing and they are at 85% health or below, a turtle shot will kill them unless you are amazing at catching spikes. So as long as they have the turtles no Aegis chain. Enchant removed.

Monk steps back out of enemy range, they are out of healing range since the NPCs are not right next to the door like the player can be. Not being able to heal the NPC means the gate is breached.

Amber needs to be run. It is pretty much a must. Since the turtles have been buffed it makes it a little harder for Kurzicks just to hold out.

The turtle attacks remove one ench. It also very predictable. There is no insta-turtle-spike.
That's two every 10ish secs. Bury PS+SB under things like Aegis, Spotless, Guardian, Veil, ... every 10 secs. This guy doesn't need to be burried under a ton of enches all the time - just make sure he is when the turtle hits.

What I mean by stepping back is that it's not necessary for all monks to be in casting range at all times. This means that you can always get a few monks to step back, mend other monks or just prepare to throw that Aegis on the ele.

Having re-read the comments about the offensive/defensive I actually saw I forgot to mention something I took into account but never explained.
I keep mentioning that 2-3 monks should be able to keep up a party of 8. I also keep mentioning over-healing and over-protting. Even certain posters have suggested that the best option is a mix of defensive and offensive characters. That would mean that you don't really need 8 monks to get the job done.
So, it would seem as if a combination of defensive and offensive guys IS the best option. The reason why I dismissed this is because we are dealing with a random arena.
This means:
1. you will run into bad players. And if those bad players happen to be monks - then your party will be weaker in the role that it should NOT be! So, by running WAY to many monks - you are able to negate the possible shortcomings of the party. Like I said, that means you are giving up offence - but offence is nowhere near as important at Kurzick Aspy as defence.
2. you need to rely on luck to get the party you want. If there should be multiple roles filed in a party that a single character can not fill - that means the player relies on luck to get the party that compliments his build.
But what is the thing you KNOW when going in as a Kurzick?
You know that if you have monks on your team - your job WILL be easier! And how do you make sure you have monks on your team?
You go in as one!

And that is why I consider 8 monk teams to be the best option. One is able to make up the potential faults of other players and one removes luck that is present in random arenas when it comes to building a party. This means you remove the random aspect from random arenas as much as possible.

Now of course I am completely aware that not every is reading this and making mental notes to themselves to make a monk. And this is another reason why you SHOULD be making one. I seriously do not see a single reason why anyone that does understand what's going on at Aspy would not roll a monk.
Unless of course - it's not fun. But then again - I don't see how potentially losing in PvP is fun.

Tarkin · May 28, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

This night i will check it, but i think are less players in Luxon side waiting to play, and more waiting in Kurzik side... if you get some good players in luxon side, you will get a stack of wins to luxon side, because kurziks will fight a row of good luxons teams, but if you get bad players in luxons side, because less ppls wait to play in luxons side, you will get a row of loses to luxons...

diehuman · May 29, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The turtle attacks remove one ench. It also very predictable. There is no insta-turtle-spike.
That's two every 10ish secs. Bury PS+SB under things like Aegis, Spotless, Guardian, Veil, ... every 10 secs. This guy doesn't need to be burried under a ton of enches all the time - just make sure he is when the turtle hits.

u must be forgot there is always ton of luxon player who want to gate down
that means they are not only dealing with the turtle spikes, they also deals with the player damage spam.
do u really think a monk or two can manage this energy usage easily to rapidly buffed the npcs? and there is two sides of gate
also eight monk with healing and prot is a bad idea to be an "epic win" team, dont trust wiki
no one capping mines to run amber, no one kill turtle or luxon damage dealer (caster), the kurz still fail

Celeborn10 · May 29, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehuman

u must be forgot there is always ton of luxon player who want to gate down
that means they are not only dealing with the turtle spikes, they also deals with the player damage spam.
do u really think a monk or two can manage this energy usage easily to rapidly buffed the npcs? and there is two sides of gate
also eight monk with healing and prot is a bad idea to be an "epic win" team, dont trust wiki
no one capping mines to run amber, no one kill turtle or luxon damage dealer (caster), the kurz still fail

If anymore than 3 Kurzick healers lose, some of them fail at the game. 3 is stretching it with 2 good rangers and a mesmer, winning against 4 healers happens once in a blue moon but anymore than that should be a game won (albeit a long one) for the Kurzick.

3 decent monks should be able to keep the Green up without a hitch. 2 good ones might be able to keep the other gates up by themselves with proper team coordination.

Hyper Cutter · May 29, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Multiple monks almost always wins. It inevitably seems to end in a stalemate at green, with monks respawning faster than you can kill them and healing Gunther all the while, until time runs out...

SeamlessD · Jun 18, 2009, 12:14 PM // 12:14

I both play on the kurz and lux side. The thing that bothers me is how easy it is too shut down the turtles in FA. Ever noticed you cans tand behind a mountain within attacking range of the Turtle not taking dmg of its hits. Being in a spot no Lux can reach you/ degen you to death/ bother you at all, hidding behind gates?

The stupid thing is.. The turtle keeps attacking you not doing ANYTHING about the NPC's at the gate or fellow Kurz's. I had many runs where the monks could just bond up/heal/prot the gate without that annoying enchant removal Siege attack. Just keep that turtle in 1 spot, attacking you were you can't die at all and he/she/it can not be a pain in the ass for kurzicks!

They should fix that (yeah even tho i abuse this when I'm a Kurz..)!! Other then that, I do think aspenwood is kinda balanced. It's more about players skills and not too mention the leechers/Bots on the lux side (I wont mention names here.....)
Defy Pain warriors are not gone safe the day. But too make FA more fun, it would be better too change some things. NPC placement etc.

Sorry if I said things that had been mentioned before, there were just too many things to read.

ibtd · Jun 18, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

A Luxon N/Mo bar with LC, Well of the Profane and Scourge Healing alone is pretty much taking the win already... with or without the turtles.

No matter how many decent monks there are on Kurzick side, a well placed WotP already takes away their prot from the equasion. Now factor in Scourge Healing and Lingering Curse and they simply blow their energy in no time in their void attempt to outheal pretty much anything. The turtles aren't even needed anymore if the team has a couple damage dealer.

The problem with FA simply is that people are picking terrible bars (defy tank, wtf ? ... RoJ --> interrupt, oh well). And because of the tasks the teams have to achieve, it shows more for the luxons. But if the Luxons would think more about what would actually be helpful for winning, they would have a very easy time.

Back when turtles weren't removing enchantments and the whole bonding thing went on, WotP was an insta win for the Luxons because all the bonders were rendered useless. But people almost never brought that skill (or enough enchantment removal in general) and such the turtles were buffed because people were complaining about the Kurzick side being OP. I loved running my fire ele with Rend Enchantments and WotP and I can't remember losing a game where I got a well off next to Gunther.

As I said before, the problem is not within the design of FA. I actually think that the Luxon are at an advantage, provided you bring the right stuff (lots of damage and enchantment removal, maybe some general monk shutdown). The problem is simply with the players. Yes FA punishes the Luxon more for bringing unsuited builds, but it rewards the Luxons more for bringing the right builds. You see it pretty clearly in JQ. The map is balanced, but it seems the Kurzick win a lot more simply because they pick the better builds.

imho

EPO Bot · Jun 18, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

There are so many skills out there to completely destroy any monk overkill, but i think the real problem is that people are so focussed on meta builds and meta builds only that they often forget about the existence of certain options. Like well of the profane. You never see it outside of the christal desert because no one ever thinks of using it.

In fact, i believe some people think WotP is a monster skill.

upier · Jun 18, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

There are so many skills out there to completely destroy any monk overkill, but i think the real problem is that people are so focussed on meta builds and meta builds only that they often forget about the existence of certain options. Like well of the profane. You never see it outside of the crystal desert because no one ever thinks of using it.

In fact, i believe some people think WotP is a monster skill.

At the same time - the Kurzick teams also forget that WotP is a 3 secs spell that requires a corpse.
Any half decent player on the Kurzick side will anticipate this counter and bring one of the 1 sec corpse exploitation skills. Well Of Weariness is the perfect option. Cheap, spammable and with an actually decent effect.

I am not saying that WotP/SH/LC template isn't a good option. It's probably among the strongest ones. And it will work nicely for most of the matches.
The problem is that it won't work for the matches where we need it to work. When we are actually dealing with competent Kurzick players. Where the Aspy-imbalance actually shows.
It just doesn't match the Kurzick monk template.

ibtd · Jun 18, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Sooner or later you will get a well of next to Gunther. Been there, done that often enough.

And even if not, just think outside the meta-box. Shadow Shroud / Rend Enchantments / Defile Flesh does a good enough job as well, without the requirements of a corpse. And it's not like that idea is the end of all things either.

You make it sound like there is no way around Kurzick monks, when in fact there are many ways to deal with them. And strong ways on top.

My point remains valid, it's not FA that is the problem, it's the players that just can't think about builds on their own and hop on PvX or copy builds from somewhere else without thinking about what they actually need to achieve.

angelsarc · Jun 18, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibtd

Yes FA punishes the Luxon more for bringing unsuited builds, but it rewards the Luxons more for bringing the right builds. You see it pretty clearly in JQ. The map is balanced, but it seems the Kurzick win a lot more simply because they pick the better builds.

imho

JQ is pretty balanced, but there are areas where the Kurzicks have an advantage due to layout. I'll use the Yellow quarry as an example, since that one is supposed to be equidistant from both sides and is the most hotly contested quarry. The guard point on the Luxon side can be fired at from the cliff adjacent to the Yellow quarry if using a flatbow, but the Kurzick guard point is out of reach. All else being equal, this means that it is more difficult for Luxons to stop the Yellow Juggernaut from returning to its base than it is for Kurzicks to stop the Yellow Turtle.

FA would be simple enough to balance if they just randomized which side is defending. Without any way of knowing whether you are sieging or defending, one side can't build in any particular way and will result in more balanced builds all around. Either that, or it'll result in more retarded builds, but at least now both sides have a 50% chance to win doing absolutely nothing.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 18, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

It would be nice if our juggernaughts got a damage buff so they could kill those darn luxon warriors. But I would hate to see Aspenwood removed from the zq roster. Its about the only thing that motivates me to play there. I still need my faction titles (only at about 85,000 K-factions). The sooner I finish my kurzick title, the sooner I can switch over and get my luxon armor set.

Then I can run around arguing with myself like a crazy person, on which faction is better and then calling myself a kurdick suxon, wearing mismatched armor from both factions. (Both factions are the same amount of fail and win IMO) Although I like the kurzick armor slightly more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

FA would be simple enough to balance if they just randomized which side is defending. Without any way of knowing whether you are sieging or defending, one side can't build in any particular way and will result in more balanced builds all around. Either that, or it'll result in more retarded builds, but at least now both sides have a 50% chance to win doing absolutely nothing.

I really like that idea, sounds like a lot of fun. I'v never played the luxon side of FA so it would be a lot of fun to trade off.

Zapper901 · Jun 18, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Over the last couple months, I've been playing quite a bit FA on my Monk for Kurzicks, and keeping track of my win-loss record. I am 45-1. Seriously. So either FA favors Kurzicks, the majority of Luxon players have terrible builds, or I am a god. I'd say it's a bit of the first and second together, because when a few Luxons actually have good builds, it is a close match. If all of them actually were decent, then they could probably win. But I think that if both teams know what they're doing, the Kurzicks will get the victory.

I also like Angelsarc's idea, it wouldn't make a lot of sense story-wise, but would make for a more balanced FA.

Short · Jun 18, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I find FA pretty balanced as the majority of Kurzicks have no idea what they are doing, today on the ZQuest, I won 1/6 matches. The Luxons know what they're doing unluckily, most of my team was sitting in the base or just amber running when Gunther was dying. This post may just be an excuse to bitch about that but in my opinion, remove it from ZQuest? Hell no, it's an excuse to test out bad Shield of Judgment builds (could that be why I lost?)

Ghost Omel · Jun 18, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Everybody posts that their team is bad.. but never admit it was their fault....im pretty sure that all poster that posted "We lost couse my team suckz" were at some point in the same game and just making excuses up for their own e-peen...Non the less its team effort if any 1 sucks its an entire team not one person...All those perfect all knowladgable players most likely didnt even bother taking charge and give deirections instead either were mute or were saying "WTF!!!!" "Dude get a better build".. "Stupid noob"..'YOU SUCK LUXONS" and other comments of the same nature.....-_-

Konig Des Todes · Jun 18, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

A nice redesign to FA wouldn't hurt, though there are still plenty of times when I lose (always on Kurzicks). Luckily, the next content update will be purely PvP related, so FA may get that tweaking/redesigning.

If there are monks on the Luxon team, it is always the same damn Mo/Me skill bard of RoJ+Arcane Echo+heals such as Patient Spirit. And the amount of those have been steadily increasing...

But if FA gets kicked from the Zaishen Quest roster, then HB needs to get kicked first. Would be humorous if they added the lvl 10- and shiverpeak arenas in FA/HB's stead.

Trinity Fire Angel · Jun 18, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Luxons only can win if you have a good heal monk Mo/P and when people realise that killing the NPC's should come first and not to storm for Gunther. Sometimes i have found i am the only monk on the lux side and find myself pumping out heals for a whole team storming the gate....

for me, that is the ultimate in heal fun!

"OH NO>.... Turtle is going down.... INFUSE!!!!!!"

and

"How can my turtle and I get past these rangers and Mesmers here hiding on the wall...?"